Behavior Change Ahead: Dr. Laura Van Schaick-Harman

Hey there, welcome to this week’s program. They say that we are all works in progress. And I think what that means for me is that each of us are continually evolving, changing, finding new ways in which we can be healthier, happier, more satisfied, more productive, yet all these grand aspirations come down to very single things –our behavior. How do we change our behavior so that we can sustainably act in a different way? Well, I wanted to explore this and I invited to help me out with this, Dr. Laura Van Schaick-Harman.

Now, Dr Laura is a practicing psychologist, a PhD operating out of the State of New York. You can find her at In order to really understand this process, Dr. Laura and I decided to take a specific behavior that women on this show have identified as an area they weren’t very much like to change and have used that behavior as our means of exploring her process. So, let’s take a listen to how do we change our behavior.

Lesley:  Well welcome, Dr. Laura. And I’m so glad that you’re joining me today in this area behavior change, because the whole notion of this program is about how do we as women show up as leaders. And part of that is recognizing that there are behaviors within us that we do want to change in order to create more of the difference and more of an impact. So my first question to you is, how do you get unstuck enough to even look at a behavior that you know needs to change but really frankly you’re just haven’t got around to it?

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Dr. Laura: Thank you. Thank you so much for asking. This question is a really good one for having me on this show. Uh, getting unstuck is an important area to really look at because a lot of times people work really hard at trying to change a behavior, or think their working hard at trying to change behavior but they feel the sense of “I’m not going anywhere and I’m not noticing any change in my life.” And what we’ve noticed a lot of times is that asking for help makes a big difference in involving your support system. Sometimes to gain the support of a behavior change professional or non-professional who can kind of provide some extra motivation, and there are so many factors that come into play when we’re trying to change the behavior. So getting unstuck is very often needing the support of other people to kind of say “Hey, have you looked at this way?” or getting the perspective a little bit, and they’re also making sure that you have that desire to want to make a change.

Lesley:  So, often it comes then from other people in interaction with us and our own interpretation of that feedback that really gives us the initiative and incentive to actually look at something. So for example, I could always be running late and think that that’s okay because I’ve got so many things to do, but until somebody actually stops and says, “You know, it would really help if you were on time.” That’s when all of a sudden becomes something like “Oh yeah, this is a pattern I should look at.”


Dr. Laura: Yeah, that is very motivating when someone says “Hey, you know, your behavior doesn’t just impact you, it’s impacting those around you who you care about and you love, or that have some involvement in your life.” And there is sort of this domino effect that my behavior impacts the behavior of everybody else and everybody else’s behavior impacts my behavior. So, behavior is not in any way in isolation, but when we change it and we need to look at it personally in isolation but also in the greater whole in terms of how it’s relating to the world around us.


Lesley:  So, how do I stop procrastinating about looking at it? So here I am, I want to stop being late and anybody who knows me knows that this is one of my things. And yet I go “Okay, well, I’m going to be really good for this next week.” And then I am really good for that next week and I really am spot on on-time, and then the next thing I know I’m falling back to my old habit. So, what stops me from procrastinating and taking the kind of look I need to look at this behavior with?


Dr. Laura: It’s a very common concern. What I usually recommend is that you do baby steps. You take small steps on a ladder and you think there’s a big difference from being late all the time to being late none of the time and that may need more gradual change that’s manageable and realistic. So, it might be used that a realistic goal that “Next week I have ten places that I have to be, and normally I would be late to 9 out of 10 of those places. So I’m going to set a specific goal and I’m just throwing out numbers here that 2 out of those 10 places, I will arrive within five minutes of the time that I am supposed to be there.” And then, reinforce yourself that you’re able to feed that goal that when you give yourself a flexibility for a little bit of wiggle room, and you don’t have to be totally perfect because the desire to “That’s it. Tomorrow I’m not going to eat anything, I’m healthy.” or “I’m going to arrive everywhere on time.” All those absolute sometime set people to fail, and then we get angry at ourselves and then we’re kind of that being stuck.


Lesley:  Well, you know, I can totally get that. And I just want to say to the audience that in order to prepare for this interview, you kindly sent me the link to your new behavior change program at


Dr. Laura:


Lesley:  Oh sorry!


Dr. Laura: That’s okay. That’s okay.


Lesley: which is also available on your website that I’ve told people to go to. And I found it really interesting even though I understand cognitive psychology, I practice a lot of behavior change work with others, you know, doing it yourselves is really really intriguing when you go to the steps that you do in your four classes. So, we’re going to do a mini version of that class here today. And, I want to start with one of the areas that women have particular challenge with women leaders that we’ve discovered in this show and that is asking for help. In other words, there are many leaders out there –and I’m dealing right now with the female leaders—who really want to do it all themselves whether that’s an entrepreneurial startup or a small business. Or, they’ve reached the position in the hierarchy that’s very senior, and they say, “Okay, I got to do it myself in order to do it right.” So, okay, let’s take that behavior. So, how do I know whether I should start with changing my behavior about asking for help or changing my behavior around trusting people? I mean, how do I start to decipher what behavior I’m trying to go after?


Dr. Laura: That’s a really really good question as well. The beginning part of changing any behavior is having a hold on what behavior that you’re trying to change to know “Where do I even begin?” And part of that is a learning observation skills and learning how to cut data on our own behavior, which is hard to do but it’s a learned skill that takes a little time. But we talked about it as you know in the behavior change ad course. So, when you’re trying to choose between two different competing behaviors—and it’s helpful— just kind of look at how each of them might impact your day-to-day decision making and your day-to-day roles. And, is it more trusting people? Is it more asking for help? And looking at your past behavior, past behavior predicts future behavior, and that’s pretty much all that we know in the psychology world for research so that we know what will happen in the future. Sometimes we wish that we could have that crystal ball, and say, “You know, if I ask this person, this project will just be perfect and go smooth, and there will be no hiccups along the way” but we won’t know that. So we kind of look at your past behavior, okay, “When I’ve asked this person in the past, this is what had happened. Or when I didn’t ask for help of anybody in the past, this is what had happened.“ So a lot of that is going over in your past and your current history how these behaviors have played out, how they have impacted you. And then basically taking that risk, doing some problem solving which we go over in the class as well to really see, “Okay, what’s the risk that I want to take and what could happen if I make this choice? What could happen if I make that choice?”

Lesley:  So let’s take some of the steps that you do in the course. So, let’s say for example, the reason that I don’t want to ask anybody for help is that I want the recognition that I deserve this role. That’s kind of a complex thought process, but for a lot of women in leadership positions they struggle because they want to be recognized as competent and capable. And so, this notion is, “I have to do this myself in order for people to recognize that I’m competent and able to do this.” So, let’s take that as the behavior that I feel I need to look at. So, you talk about the functions that are underlying this behavior. So, can you tell the audience in this particular case what would I be looking at in terms of functions?


Dr. Laura: Well, I think, there might be…. You know, for the audience, you might not know but we do everything for a reason. So there’s different backgrounds, there’s different purposes for everything that do and that’s what the function of a behavior is. So in this situation, just knowing limited information because to find out truly what a function is, you have to do substantial data collection and really look at that behavior. But just for the sake of the interview it sounds like, you know, for somebody that is looking for that recognition, you know, “Wow, she did this on her own. This is amazing.” That might be a function of what’s called attention seeking, which is being able to engage in a behavior in order to gain access to attention from other, that recognition from others. And certainly, that could be a very motivating function of a behavior for leaders who go into these positions and they just love that recognition, and that praise and that attention. And in that sense it could be really helpful because it might drive you to continue succeeding and doing more, but then there might be a point where it crosses over and it’s over whelming and there’s too much. So, that might be one hypothesis. Another hypothesis that you might be gaining access to a promotion, or other special projects or other tangible things that you could earn in addition to the attention that you might also get and that could be motivating your behavior. In order to change that, you’ll need to let go a little bit of “Okay, maybe there’s a different way that I can get the attention and the recognition from others” and that might be, “Maybe I can get the attention for a great team approach and I could share the attention a little bit, and then also relieve some of the burden that I’ve taken all myself to do all this work on my own.”


Lesley:  So, I really found it interesting when I got into the functions, because as you say, you first of all find out whether there’s a medical reason for why you’re doing what you’re doing. I mean, we’re just talking about one kind of behavior, but there are many behaviors that could be driven by other reasons. And then you look at “is it a means of getting attention” that seems to be a fairly common reason why we do what we do. And, you know, you talk a lot about the kid in the grocery store wanting to have the candy, right? I mean that’s seeking attention. And then, what do you physically get, and that’s what you’re taking about in terms of “In there’s a promotion in the wind? Is there some other kind of physical achievement that I will get if I keep using this behavior?” And then, I found it interesting with “what do I want to avoid or escape through this behavior?” So, let’s take this case where I do it all myself because I want to get recognition, what might I be avoiding or wanting to avoid by doing this behavior?


Dr. Laura: That’s a great way really looking at behavior from different perspectives, and their hypothesis maybe “Maybe I am not comfortable working alongside other people. Maybe I’m experiencing some social concerns working with other people, sharing tasks, being able to trust that someone can do the job the way that I’d like it to be done or in my viewpoint as good as it should be. Or maybe I just don’t know I’m avoiding having to be relying on somebody else’s schedule, and I want to do it on my own schedule.” So, there are lots of things that people do to get out of or avoid tasks.


Lesley:  You know, and I think one of the other questions that you ask is “what’s the sensory experience I have when I perform this behavior?” And I think often we get adrenaline rushes when we do something that is for attention or that is avoiding something that we don’t want to get into. And so, our body actually can send us messages whether through the taste buds, or through smell or through a gut feeling that says “Hey, wait a second here, I kind of like avoiding not having to ask that person for help. I kind of like the fact that I’m now going to go off and do this myself and be a heroin in this situation.” So, we do get these types of reinforcers, which bring me to the subject of reinforcement. So how does reinforcement play out in this behavior change process?


Dr. Laura: Reinforcement is a key. Reinforcement is huge. And what’s so interesting is that all along the years of the people that I’ve worked with whether it’s been personally, professionally teaching or in a therapy situation, people have a mixed idea about how reinforcement plays a role in behavior change. And sometimes there are generational differences and sometimes there are individual and family cultural differences. For example, a lot of people feel “Why should I get reinforced for something that I should be doing anyway?” Or you say, “Well, would you go to work for free, because if you get paid then you’re getting reinforced for going to work and engaging in that behavior.” Unless you are totally intrinsically motivated by it and you get nothing else besides sensory component, and then you don’t want but that is still reinforcement and of itself. So, reinforcement is very tricky to make sure that it sounds simple, but it’s tricky to make sure that you implement it correctly. For example, for me, I love chocolate anybody who knows me I love chocolate, and I eat chocolate all the time. Chocolate is a great reinforcement for me. However, if unless I limit it to being used only when I have achieved this specific goal that I’m working towards, it’s not going to be an effective reinforce because I know “Hey, I’m going to have it anyway.” I don’t need to make this change in my life because I’m still going to be able to have my reinforcement. That makes sense.


Lesley:  Yeah it does. So let’s keep on the example where I want to do it all myself because I want to get recognized for my competency and my capability. So let’s say I’ve identified that the function of that is that I really don’t like working with other people and depending on other people, like that’s just an area that I’d rather do it myself than do it with somebody else. What would I first of all use as a healthy description of the behavior I want to change? You say healthy behaviors versus unhealthy behaviors.

Dr. Laura: Yeah. It sounds like in that example that “I want to be able to learn how to work with and how to find a specific member of people, but for the sake we’ll just say two to three other people in a team. I want to be able to work with the two other people and accomplish this specific task.” And with that, the layers there would be being comfortable, coping with the unknown, the unpredictability of what comes along with working with other people and also the possibility of sharing that recognition as a team rather as an individual.


Lesley:  So let’s take this one. You limit it to a very specific event. So, “On this project or on this task, I’m going to involve two other people to help me with this task.” So you brought right down to a very specific incident as supposed to, “Yeah I’m going to ask more people to get involved with my work,” right? So that was an important differentiator. Second thing is, is that “Okay, I’m going to do that and I’m going to overcome the function which is just wanting to do things myself and not putting myself out there.” What would be a reinforcer that I would start to look at, that would reinforce and give me that kind reward that I would want to receive in taking on this task with two other people?


Dr. Laura: I think it might be helpful to look at… Well, you could do a reinforcer assessment to find out what you like to be working towards. But in this example, to think about recognition and attention is a big motivator that maybe giving some of that away a little bit like thanking your teammates for working so hard, or for arriving on time or for their role in this project in the hopes that they in turn will return some of that appreciation and share that recognition. And experience that sense of not only receiving the attention or recognition but sharing that as well, but that might give some extra reinforcement of “Hey, this is pretty cool in this new arena.” And also, if you wanted to get really specific that you could talk to superiors, and ask only to be receiving the recognition as a team that they know this is the scale if that you’re working on and you want to limit the attention individually.


Lesley:  So you actually craft the circumstance whereby you shifted from getting attention as doing it yourself to getting attention for having done it as a team. I’m still getting attention but I’m getting it from a different type of behavior.


Dr. Laura: Exactly. So you want the reinforcement to be provided for the behavior that you’re working towards for that whole.


Lesley:  Okay. So, what I really like was the data gathering phase when you’re really starting to understand your own behavior. So I’m going back into understanding more about your own behavior, and you use the example of “Think of yourself being videotaped by a camera and literally watch what you do in that circumstance.” So, tell me about this video camera, you know, cognitive process that I use to watch my behavior associated with not involving people because that’s what I want to gather data on and working with people. How do I do that?


Dr. Laura: So this is very important as well because a lot of times when we describe our own behavior we really don’t have a good handle on what it is that we think that we’re doing. And we might say, “Well, I just don’t work people.” What does that mean? And if we try to absorb our behavior, if we were to picture and this is kind of stepping out of our own experience for a moment and try to be an observer of our own behavior, we would see what a video camera would see. We see us walking in the hallway, and somebody says “Hello” and we keep on walking by. Or “You know, we see somebody walking down with the cubicles and I duck into the nearest office there.” We think, “Oh, well that’s how the avoidance is playing out.” “What do you mean?” “What do I mean by I avoid other people?” And it’s also good to make sure that were not putting interpretations and judgments into describing our own behavior, because that’s another process. But in terms of specific behavior change when you’re trying to define a behavior, we need to take those out of the context and really just look at what would a video camera see. They would see me walking, saying hello, not saying hello, making eye contact, not making eye contact, saying yes to a project or no to a project.


Lesley:  As you were saying that, I would take myself back to a meeting that this project was discussed, and I could see me saying “Oh I can take that on.” And I would see me walking out of the meeting with the project, going to my desk and immediately starting on the project. And that way, I actually have the camera lens watching that there is at no time in that process do I stop and think “Who else can I involve in this so that we can operate this as a shared experience?” So this is where literally going back into your experience and looking at it as if you were filming it becomes a really important aspect to the research.


Dr. Laura: Yeah. And in fact you mentioned an important observation there too is that you just said “I can do it” and then walked. And then to your desk it was just a straight line that there was no deviation from whatsoever, so there was no opportunity either to involve people beyond your thinking that that could even be impossibility.


Lesley:  Exactly. And so, I also thought was really interesting is that you start to take—when you’re really serious about a behavior change—you do start to track your occurrence, right? So you talk about “How frequently do I simply take the task and run with it?” So you’ll look at frequency, what else do you look at? What is the other kind of data that you would gather to look and see “Is this a problem? Do I need to do something about it, and what is actually going on with me in this behavior?”


Dr. Laura: Another in addition to frequency which is actually a very popular form of the collection. And there’s another form called “observation” which that might be tracking the amount of time that you spend working by yourself on a project that could have been done with other people. And then that interesting information to find out how much of a percentage of your time is being spent working alone versus working with others, and that would be good information to have if you wanted to change that. Let’s say, decrease the amount of time you spend working individually to increase the amount of time that you spend working with others.


Lesley:  So, you talk about, you know, it’s a fact that you can just keep notes on your phone, or every time that you find yourself… Because awareness and we know about the hawthorne experience where strictly observing a behavior can change the behavior that we start to become more aware of how long we spend with others, how frequently do we ask somebody for help. In general, we can start to look at these patterns of our own behavior that give us an insight as to “Well, what is my pattern that I tend to use? And I can do that for a week just keeping notes on my phone about how many times did I ask?” These are easy techniques. What I’m trying to get is that we don’t have to keep a long list of clipboards rocking around with us.


Dr. Laura: Right. You can use your phone. Some people, if you have your computer with you and you work in your computer, you have just like a separate file on the side, others will do physical data like paper clips in one pocket. And if you’re tracking frequency data each time that you engage and they move it from one pocket to the next, and then at the end of the day you can just count it up, simple creative things like that. So, if you’re not able to cut the data then the process is going to fall apart very early on. So that’s why it’s important to find that an easy PC reliable so it’s not too difficult.


Lesley:  So, what I’ve done then so far is I’ve recognized that I have to change this behavior in a way, and then I’ve collected data in an easy way to find out what is my pattern that I’m using. And then I set for myself a realistic goal that I can achieve, and I set up reinforcement for that goal. Like, saying to my boss, “Listen, I’m going to take this on in a different way, I’m trying something new,” and that way then I’m building in the recognition for changing my behavior.


Dr. Laura: Yeah. That’s actually really, really cool part of a process to be able to go to a superior, and let them know “Hey.” And I think a lot of superiors would value that too and the people that are working with them. Hey, they’re really taking this on, this initiative to really look at themselves and how they approach the work, not only are they interested in doing the work but they’re also interested in their approach to the work. And that steams the dynamic for how you might be engaging in your behavior change and letting others know so it’s not just a sole project.


Lesley:  So, you talk about a ladder in your course. Let’s say, in this example I start with one activity that I’m getting involved in that I’m going to share with others. How would this ladder work? Is it that I put at the very top I will always be engaging other people in my projects when it’s required? I mean, how do you set the top of the ladder, how do you set the bottom of the ladder and then how do you set the steps that we’re going to get you to that ultimate goal?


Dr. Laura: For the top of the ladder, we usually recommend to stay away from phrases like “always and never those absolutes,” because very rarely we as human beings can ever achieve that. There are things that happen along the way and once we set up an unrealistic goal to achieve then that could have a yucky feeling in the process. So, usually if you envision say, “This is where I would like to be after a period of time of working on this. This is my ideal situation.” And if we’re thinking, “I always want to work with other people,” that’s not realistic. So, we might say, “Okay, I’m going to say 80 percent of the time or 8 out of every 10 projects I’m going to be working with at least 2 or 3 other people and getting the task done,” and then you would work backwards from there. Or, you could set that as your end-goal and then go back the very beginning, and say, “What’s the very, very first step? Well, first, I have to learn to work with one other person on one project for the beginning step of the project.” And the ladder is going to look different for different people. For the people that are implementing this type of behavior change, I would imagine they’re sort of go-getters and they’re high achievers, and they’re going to want to just jump right to the end of the ladder right away. However, that’s always being a step to go from not working with others at all to working 80 percent of the time with other people. So you could work backwards, and say “Okay then, before I’m working with 2 or 3 other people, maybe I’m working with 2 people for 7 out of 10 projects or 6 out of 10 projects.” And then, you would have to also do a time period, like “For this quarter, this many projects or for the year, if a track it from this year to next year, by next year I want to be able to say that I worked on this many projects with this many people.”


Lesley:  Of course. But you’re saying is that I think where behavior change fails is that we go from zero to a hundred and definitely don’t make it, and that we don’t take the time to even build in self-recognition and motivation to do it in smaller bites. Because, as you say, a lot of us are go-getters and it’s either on or it’s off.

Dr. Laura: Correct. Yes.


Lesley:  So, we’ve been talking a lot about behaviors as if they’re really easy, like once I break it down then I can get a handle on it. I mean, even taking the time to do a behavior change course takes an investment. So, what is it that I have to be able to feel or do to seriously take this on and recognize that it’s something that it’s not just going to go away and I could benefit from it?


Dr. Laura: I think, part of that is accepting that behavior change takes some time and not punishing ourselves when we sidestep from the ladder. Or we take a little bit different direction and that we have some flexibility, and that we recognize that it’s okay that it says “take some time” and it’s a learning process, and that there is a perfect human being, and that that is an ever evolving sort of growth process in our work and our personal and professional lives.


Lesley:  So, as we come to an end which I’m very sad to say because there are so much depths to this, I use the term “behavior change and habit,” how do we know what’s a habit out of all of this?


Dr. Laura: Well, habit would be something that you just sort of do over and over and over again and you may or may not have awareness of it. This isn’t necessarily making a habit if you don’t know that you’re doing it. A lot of people feel that way and I think that’s a misconception, so let’s say it’s a habit or just something that is a behavior that’s well-established. And also, people have this negative connotation associated with the work habit that it’s a bad thing, but there are healthy habits too. And your behavior could be unhealthy or healthy, depending on how it’s used and who is being used, who is the one who’s doing it and then what context. So, my goal is really help people to develop healthy habits so that the behavior change last in their lives.


Lesley:  So if I were to stretch this out of somebody who has had difficulty in the past with asking for help, what I do know is that I end up resenting the fact from undoing it by myself. And so, the habit is to do it myself and then resent the fact that I’m doing it myself. And so, decoupling all of that and taking me back to the fact that I’m seeking approval or attention is the reason I’m doing it myself, and asking myself some other ways in which I could do this and still get appropriate attention but not end up feeling resentful. I mean, these are all parts of the process that you speak about in your course.


Dr. Laura: Yeah. There are lots of layers to behavior change, it’s not so simple.

Lesley:  So, we think of it pretty logically. We’ve identified it as if it’s a logical one, two, three step. What do you want to leave with our audience about recognizing that if we were simple we’d be doing it? Like you know what I mean?


Dr. Laura: Yeah, I definitely know what you mean. So this is where I think its acceptance and recognizing that it’s a process, and that it’s okay that we make mistakes and it’s good to have goals that we want to work towards. Life would be sort of boring in my opinion if we didn’t have things that we’d like to change or we’d like to work towards. So I think that being not judgmental of ourselves, and say “It’s okay” is we’re struggling with this certain behavior and it’s okay. It seems they’re not perfect and that they’re not done perfectly, and that recognizing the fluid process and that you could enjoy it along the way, and how important it is to accept  all those small steps along the way in that process as a key in making lasting behavior change is very important to remember.


Lesley:  Well, I can’t thank you enough, Dr. Laura. I’m going to make sure that people know about your course and know about how intriguing it is to actually get down and spend some investment. And I think that’s I’m going to leave with this that you help people invest in themselves and I want to thank you for that.


Dr. Laura: Thank you so much!


Sounds pretty straightforward and easy, doesn’t it? Woo no, it’s anything but that. But I did find that by participating in Dr. Laura’s forepart program, it really helped me to take the time that I needed to take and to follow the steps that would most help me in order to change a specific behavior. I did in fact undertake some research and looked into how frequently was I performing this behavior, I wasn’t sure I was doing everything it should and how long or duration did I spend on it. I, you know, ask for feedback which is always risky but always absolutely fantastic in the end, at the moment maybe not but in the end really insightful.

These steps certainly helped me to formulate this specific behavior I wanted to change. And in doing so, I started to understand better what was the purpose, what was the function, why did I do this behavior, and this case I had to dig deep. You know, we often say to stay in the head but this time I had to move into my heart and truly explore why was I doing this. And in doing so, I determined the function I was trying to achieve. Where there other ways of doing it? Was it a function that was particularly healthy for me? All of these helped me start to think about what was it that I needed to do differently, and that was where I was able to start setting my goal. I set my goal for a month how would I be looking in a month’s time in terms of this behavior.

And Dr. Laura suggested, I did in fact put some baby steps. I started with what in the next day can I do to begin this change. I also built in the reinforcers what will keep me motivated to do this, how can I reward myself or seek feedback that would help me moving along my ladder of increasingly shifting this behavior. Well, it’s been a few days now and I can say that I’m well on my way. Well, there’s going to be some hiccups, but indeed I really appreciate both the time I took and the time that Dr. Laura took in helping me shift a fundamental behavior that I started thinking I didn’t need to change and then realized I really did. To find out more about Dr. Laura’s course, you can go to changebehaviorsnow.weebly that’s

To find out more about Dr. Laura herself and all the services she offers, head over to There you’ll discover that not only can you sign up for the course but also you can participate on her e-consultation, the type of interaction that we can now do with others who are not in our geographic area to help us. Dr. Laura can help you on exploring maybe not this specific behavior change but on a habit that you have developed that you most seriously want to take a look at. I think you will very much welcome her professionalism and her beautiful supportive approach.

To find out more about me, it’s at, at, facebook: women who lead radio show, and linkedin: Lesley Southwick-Trask.

As we say, you can change the world but only you can do that by changing as me, the “me” in the world, and I can only change me by changing my behavior. So, thanks for listening. Remember this is your show. I am your host Lesley Southwick-Trask. See you next time.

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